Interview with His Holiness Gyalwa Karmapa, September 1980
Bringing The Teachings Of Buddha To The West
by Janet Bell for The Movement, Vol V, Issue 9, September 1980.
When I first set eyes on His Holiness the 16th Gyalwa Karmapa at a reception in a Bel Air mansion, I was shocked at the difference in his appearance from the pictures I had seen from his last visit to Los Angeles. Sitting in the gazebo surrounded by about eight monks dressed in the traditional Tibetan robes, His Holiness looked much older than the three years that had passed. Bell's palsy had damaged the nerves of one side of his face leaving it expressionless, and he was at least 25 pounds lighter than he had been. The laughing face I had seen was replaced by one that seemed more contemplative, yet a smile could be detected from time to time, as I watched him sharing with those who came to receive his blessing.
I was privileged to have the opportunity to meet with His Holiness in a more private setting for this interview. After he settled into the large floor pillow at the Los Angeles Karma Thegsum Cho Ling Center, I went to greet him, and immediately experienced the loving and unspoken humility that is characteristic of a great master. As I offered him a single flower, he smiled in appreciation of my respect for their custom...and shook my hand.
Movement Newspaper: Karmapa the Black Hat Lama of Tibet contains stories telling of many “auspicious” signs which occurred at the birth of the newly- incarnated Karmapa. Rainbows and flowers falling from the sky were among them, as well as the newborn infant immediately opening his eyes and reciting a mantra or assuming that he is the Karmapa. Are these just stories or were they real occurrences? Must one be familiar with Buddhist tradition to perceive these signs?
His Holiness the 16th Gyalwa Karmapa: At the time of the birth, such things happen, and these are perceived by everyone who is present, whoever those people may be. People talk about these things still happening. But whatever happened at my birth or when I was very young, I don't remember.
MN: This must be a time in which miracles such as these are few, as according to Buddhism, this is the Kali Yuga or the Dark Age. What do you see will come forward as a result of this period?
HH: It's called the Dark Age because the more uplifting and demeritorious qualities of the human world are diminishing whereas the gross and neurotic aspects of the human qualities are more present and becoming more apparent. One could say that it's like clear water that diminishes or dries up, allowing you to see the mud and clay appearing. This kind of situation has to do with the quality of the human mind.
MN: And how does His Holiness see the human race emerging from this age?
HH: It depends on the individual's mental attitude and the collective mental attitude of all people. That is to say, it depends if one lives according to the truth of cause and effect, and respects and realises the significance of that truth. When coming to truth really exists, there is a better chance. Then one is being honest with oneself and honest with others, and in this sincerity, even if one is only sowing the field and growing fruits and grains, everything seems to blossom forth and grow. Whatever we do will attract success, achievement and things happening in a better way. But, on the other hand, when people are swearing at each other and not respecting the truth of cause and effect, and take part in all kinds of gross indulgences, then there is degradation taking place. So it's how one lives that will determine the course.
MN: Does His Holiness see the outcome of this time as a positive one for the human race?
HH: Actually it's more of a degenerating time. According to our tradition, this will continue until the time comes when people born will live only 10 years-the oldest age that you could live would be 10 years. So after the height of the degeneration comes, then a new curvature will start again, from 10 years to maybe 100 years. This will be the time of the fifth Buddha, Maitreya.
MN: Is there a certain year that this turn from degeneration is supposed to occur?
HH: It's countless years actually. Yes, there is a specific time from the absolute point of view, but right now, explaining it and trying to make the public aware of it wouldn't make any sense.
MN: Do you see your role as leader of the Kagyu lineage different now in this technological age when you travel and have many students all over the world?
HH: No, I have not noticed any specific difference. When I was in Tibet, I also traveled all over, always teaching and making the dharma available. I have come out of Tibet to also work on spreading the teachings. The situation is very inspiring and encouraging because there is a lot of interest in Europe, North America and elsewhere in the world. A lot of centers have been established. One important thing is that my teaching has no political involvement whatsoever.
MN: His Holiness, do you see the possibility for any future Karmapa being a westerner?
HH: It is possible, depending on, as we would say, if there were flowers which would attract the bees. Before, there were no lamas, no teachers because nobody was interested in the teachings. But now that many people are interested in the teachings, the teachers started appearing and giving their services. So it depends if there are the flowers or not for the bees.
MN: What about the possibility of a woman being born into the Karmapa lineage?
HH: According to the teachings, it isn't that specific. It has to manifest in only one appearance at a time, and in whatever way beings can be benefitted most-in whatever form, be it a man, woman, or even an animal. So it is possible that it could be a woman.
MN: Is it necessary for one that is working to gain enlightenment to have a teacher?
HH: They must have one. Without a teacher you cannot experience enlightenment. It must be through the instruction and guidance of a teacher, unless it's an exceptional situation, where for eons, for many, many lifetimes you have worked out your neurotic patterns and such, and now it has come to the point of blossoming forth. Only in that case would it be different.
MN: And what kind of instruction do you use with your students?
HH: I cannot say specifically that. It depends on the student. All the various instructions and methods offered are based on where the student is at and who he is. It depends on his capacities and experiences.
MN: Are there many advanced students in America?
HH: Yes, there are quite a lot of those who have finished certain prerequisites, preliminary foundation practices and are doing more advanced practices.
MN: The Kagyu lineage is also called the “practicing” lineage. What is the meaning of that?
HH: There is great emphasis on meditation practice. The way we describe it is being the son of the mountains wearing the clouds as your clothes and turning away from fame, power and wealth.
MN: How is it different than other Buddhist sects?
HH: Basically there is no difference because bringing the teachings of the Buddha is the same. But whether you really want to attain enlightenment in a quicker way or not is quite up to you. In our teachings, the emphasis is made on practice.
MN: So this is the quicker way?
HH: Definitely. Yes, this is the most immediate and incomparable path, that which has been followed by Milarepa. (Editor's note: Milarepa is a yogi/saint/ poet who was one of those of the ancient transmission that prepared the way for the first Karmapa incarnation.)
MN: Are there a certain number of hours one is expected to meditate or do these practices each day?
HH: It's up to oneself. The point is the more the better, but it is most important to be consistent even if it's only for five or 10 minutes a day. But the more the better.
MN: His Holiness, you and your monks are celibate as part of your life style and as a result of your tradition. From your point of view, is being married or being involved sexually inhibitive to spiritual aspirations?
HH: Yes. As long as there is attachment, there is passion, the insatiable thirst to have more, and yes, that’s a limitation. It’s an obstacle in one’s practice. Generally, when one is in a family, a household, there are more attachments to samsara, to the mundane world. A celibate really doesn’t have much to get attached to.
MN: Do you suggest that your students be celibate?
HH: It’s open, up to the individual. If they can commit to such precepts, it is beneficial for their own good, but it’s not true that lay people cannot practice the teachings too. Lay people also can definitely practice and advance.
MN: His Holiness, you give public blessings to many people in your travels. What is the significance of these blessings and how does it affect people’s lives?
HH: Generally it’s purely friendship, social exchange. But to be very frank with you, if the individual person who is receiving the blessing has confidence and a sense of trust, then it could be also a turning point in that person’s life, in terms of betterment, progress.
MN: Spiritually?
HH: Spiritually and in all ways. I hesitate to say.
MN: Is this the same blessing that’s given after the Vajra Crown Ceremony?
HH: Yes, definitely. It’s not according to the western traditions, as when you apply for a job with certain qualifications and many years of experience. It’s important, but according to tradition, my predecessors, through the Vajra Crown Ceremony, liberated many beings. I also liberate many beings.
MN: Could you describe your experience during the Vajra Crown Ceremony? I read that by putting on the black crown, a communication link is created with the entire lineage of Karmapas.
HH: My predecessors have said that when they put on the crown they move into an awakened state which culminates their aspirations, the main one being, ‘‘may all sentient beings be liberated”. This is not only an aspiration, because according to their life stories, many beings have actually been liberated. There are authentic stories as to how many beings have been liberated at these ceremonies. But as far as I am concerned, I also create or generate the proper aspirations, but what happens as a result of them, if any benefit comes about, I do not know.
MN: I know that you have been going through a physical illness recently, and I was wondering how you see this illness from a higher perspective. Can’t liberated beings, such as yourself, transmute physical problems?
HH: It is according to the practicing lineage that the custom of receiving and sending is very important. The great masters of the lineage have played this part, in the sense of receiving, taking in the sufferings and confusion of beings, letting go, and sending out the happiness and experience of bliss of oneself. In this way, they have benefitted these beings. And yet, when one receives the sickness or sufferings and confusion of others, that is transmuted, but is in appearance sickness. In essence, the enlightened masters of the lineage are never sick. But when His Holiness gets sick, it’s like anyone else is getting sick.
MN: In Buddhist teaching, there is a lot of humor present and I wanted to know what part you would say this plays in the journey toward enlightenment?
HH: Humor plays an important role in the teaching because it is a special, very skillful method, a skillful means. It adds flavor to the teachings. There are certain expectations where, when one is receiving the teachings, there is a pleasantness, joy and sometimes openness, which is very important. It is very encouraging, and also very stimulating. And so it is necessary as a part of the teaching that people are encouraged, and have an attitude of openness.
MN: His Holiness, do you share humor with your students?
HH: Yes (he said with a broad smile).
(Thought researching for the interviewer and the newspaper, I wasn’t successful. If you know them, please contact me please contact me using the contact form, I’d like to ask them whether they agree that I publish the text here. G.B.).
Thanks to Dharma ebooks for posting the article on facebook and to Monika Müller and Anna Majerechová for providing me with the text.
Bringing The Teachings Of Buddha To The West
by Janet Bell for The Movement, Vol V, Issue 9, September 1980.
When I first set eyes on His Holiness the 16th Gyalwa Karmapa at a reception in a Bel Air mansion, I was shocked at the difference in his appearance from the pictures I had seen from his last visit to Los Angeles. Sitting in the gazebo surrounded by about eight monks dressed in the traditional Tibetan robes, His Holiness looked much older than the three years that had passed. Bell's palsy had damaged the nerves of one side of his face leaving it expressionless, and he was at least 25 pounds lighter than he had been. The laughing face I had seen was replaced by one that seemed more contemplative, yet a smile could be detected from time to time, as I watched him sharing with those who came to receive his blessing.
I was privileged to have the opportunity to meet with His Holiness in a more private setting for this interview. After he settled into the large floor pillow at the Los Angeles Karma Thegsum Cho Ling Center, I went to greet him, and immediately experienced the loving and unspoken humility that is characteristic of a great master. As I offered him a single flower, he smiled in appreciation of my respect for their custom...and shook my hand.
Movement Newspaper: Karmapa the Black Hat Lama of Tibet contains stories telling of many “auspicious” signs which occurred at the birth of the newly- incarnated Karmapa. Rainbows and flowers falling from the sky were among them, as well as the newborn infant immediately opening his eyes and reciting a mantra or assuming that he is the Karmapa. Are these just stories or were they real occurrences? Must one be familiar with Buddhist tradition to perceive these signs?
His Holiness the 16th Gyalwa Karmapa: At the time of the birth, such things happen, and these are perceived by everyone who is present, whoever those people may be. People talk about these things still happening. But whatever happened at my birth or when I was very young, I don't remember.
MN: This must be a time in which miracles such as these are few, as according to Buddhism, this is the Kali Yuga or the Dark Age. What do you see will come forward as a result of this period?
HH: It's called the Dark Age because the more uplifting and demeritorious qualities of the human world are diminishing whereas the gross and neurotic aspects of the human qualities are more present and becoming more apparent. One could say that it's like clear water that diminishes or dries up, allowing you to see the mud and clay appearing. This kind of situation has to do with the quality of the human mind.
MN: And how does His Holiness see the human race emerging from this age?
HH: It depends on the individual's mental attitude and the collective mental attitude of all people. That is to say, it depends if one lives according to the truth of cause and effect, and respects and realises the significance of that truth. When coming to truth really exists, there is a better chance. Then one is being honest with oneself and honest with others, and in this sincerity, even if one is only sowing the field and growing fruits and grains, everything seems to blossom forth and grow. Whatever we do will attract success, achievement and things happening in a better way. But, on the other hand, when people are swearing at each other and not respecting the truth of cause and effect, and take part in all kinds of gross indulgences, then there is degradation taking place. So it's how one lives that will determine the course.
MN: Does His Holiness see the outcome of this time as a positive one for the human race?
HH: Actually it's more of a degenerating time. According to our tradition, this will continue until the time comes when people born will live only 10 years-the oldest age that you could live would be 10 years. So after the height of the degeneration comes, then a new curvature will start again, from 10 years to maybe 100 years. This will be the time of the fifth Buddha, Maitreya.
MN: Is there a certain year that this turn from degeneration is supposed to occur?
HH: It's countless years actually. Yes, there is a specific time from the absolute point of view, but right now, explaining it and trying to make the public aware of it wouldn't make any sense.
MN: Do you see your role as leader of the Kagyu lineage different now in this technological age when you travel and have many students all over the world?
HH: No, I have not noticed any specific difference. When I was in Tibet, I also traveled all over, always teaching and making the dharma available. I have come out of Tibet to also work on spreading the teachings. The situation is very inspiring and encouraging because there is a lot of interest in Europe, North America and elsewhere in the world. A lot of centers have been established. One important thing is that my teaching has no political involvement whatsoever.
MN: His Holiness, do you see the possibility for any future Karmapa being a westerner?
HH: It is possible, depending on, as we would say, if there were flowers which would attract the bees. Before, there were no lamas, no teachers because nobody was interested in the teachings. But now that many people are interested in the teachings, the teachers started appearing and giving their services. So it depends if there are the flowers or not for the bees.
MN: What about the possibility of a woman being born into the Karmapa lineage?
HH: According to the teachings, it isn't that specific. It has to manifest in only one appearance at a time, and in whatever way beings can be benefitted most-in whatever form, be it a man, woman, or even an animal. So it is possible that it could be a woman.
MN: Is it necessary for one that is working to gain enlightenment to have a teacher?
HH: They must have one. Without a teacher you cannot experience enlightenment. It must be through the instruction and guidance of a teacher, unless it's an exceptional situation, where for eons, for many, many lifetimes you have worked out your neurotic patterns and such, and now it has come to the point of blossoming forth. Only in that case would it be different.
MN: And what kind of instruction do you use with your students?
HH: I cannot say specifically that. It depends on the student. All the various instructions and methods offered are based on where the student is at and who he is. It depends on his capacities and experiences.
MN: Are there many advanced students in America?
HH: Yes, there are quite a lot of those who have finished certain prerequisites, preliminary foundation practices and are doing more advanced practices.
MN: The Kagyu lineage is also called the “practicing” lineage. What is the meaning of that?
HH: There is great emphasis on meditation practice. The way we describe it is being the son of the mountains wearing the clouds as your clothes and turning away from fame, power and wealth.
MN: How is it different than other Buddhist sects?
HH: Basically there is no difference because bringing the teachings of the Buddha is the same. But whether you really want to attain enlightenment in a quicker way or not is quite up to you. In our teachings, the emphasis is made on practice.
MN: So this is the quicker way?
HH: Definitely. Yes, this is the most immediate and incomparable path, that which has been followed by Milarepa. (Editor's note: Milarepa is a yogi/saint/ poet who was one of those of the ancient transmission that prepared the way for the first Karmapa incarnation.)
MN: Are there a certain number of hours one is expected to meditate or do these practices each day?
HH: It's up to oneself. The point is the more the better, but it is most important to be consistent even if it's only for five or 10 minutes a day. But the more the better.
MN: His Holiness, you and your monks are celibate as part of your life style and as a result of your tradition. From your point of view, is being married or being involved sexually inhibitive to spiritual aspirations?
HH: Yes. As long as there is attachment, there is passion, the insatiable thirst to have more, and yes, that’s a limitation. It’s an obstacle in one’s practice. Generally, when one is in a family, a household, there are more attachments to samsara, to the mundane world. A celibate really doesn’t have much to get attached to.
MN: Do you suggest that your students be celibate?
HH: It’s open, up to the individual. If they can commit to such precepts, it is beneficial for their own good, but it’s not true that lay people cannot practice the teachings too. Lay people also can definitely practice and advance.
MN: His Holiness, you give public blessings to many people in your travels. What is the significance of these blessings and how does it affect people’s lives?
HH: Generally it’s purely friendship, social exchange. But to be very frank with you, if the individual person who is receiving the blessing has confidence and a sense of trust, then it could be also a turning point in that person’s life, in terms of betterment, progress.
MN: Spiritually?
HH: Spiritually and in all ways. I hesitate to say.
MN: Is this the same blessing that’s given after the Vajra Crown Ceremony?
HH: Yes, definitely. It’s not according to the western traditions, as when you apply for a job with certain qualifications and many years of experience. It’s important, but according to tradition, my predecessors, through the Vajra Crown Ceremony, liberated many beings. I also liberate many beings.
MN: Could you describe your experience during the Vajra Crown Ceremony? I read that by putting on the black crown, a communication link is created with the entire lineage of Karmapas.
HH: My predecessors have said that when they put on the crown they move into an awakened state which culminates their aspirations, the main one being, ‘‘may all sentient beings be liberated”. This is not only an aspiration, because according to their life stories, many beings have actually been liberated. There are authentic stories as to how many beings have been liberated at these ceremonies. But as far as I am concerned, I also create or generate the proper aspirations, but what happens as a result of them, if any benefit comes about, I do not know.
MN: I know that you have been going through a physical illness recently, and I was wondering how you see this illness from a higher perspective. Can’t liberated beings, such as yourself, transmute physical problems?
HH: It is according to the practicing lineage that the custom of receiving and sending is very important. The great masters of the lineage have played this part, in the sense of receiving, taking in the sufferings and confusion of beings, letting go, and sending out the happiness and experience of bliss of oneself. In this way, they have benefitted these beings. And yet, when one receives the sickness or sufferings and confusion of others, that is transmuted, but is in appearance sickness. In essence, the enlightened masters of the lineage are never sick. But when His Holiness gets sick, it’s like anyone else is getting sick.
MN: In Buddhist teaching, there is a lot of humor present and I wanted to know what part you would say this plays in the journey toward enlightenment?
HH: Humor plays an important role in the teaching because it is a special, very skillful method, a skillful means. It adds flavor to the teachings. There are certain expectations where, when one is receiving the teachings, there is a pleasantness, joy and sometimes openness, which is very important. It is very encouraging, and also very stimulating. And so it is necessary as a part of the teaching that people are encouraged, and have an attitude of openness.
MN: His Holiness, do you share humor with your students?
HH: Yes (he said with a broad smile).
(Thought researching for the interviewer and the newspaper, I wasn’t successful. If you know them, please contact me please contact me using the contact form, I’d like to ask them whether they agree that I publish the text here. G.B.).
Thanks to Dharma ebooks for posting the article on facebook and to Monika Müller and Anna Majerechová for providing me with the text.
